Body Panel Fitting Issue

[Justin Lewis]

Hi all,

I'm in the midst of fitting the infamous body panels, and I'm a bit stuck. I understand the basic premise of loosely attaching everything to facilitate making repeated adjustments but I'm puzzled by how unsymmetrical the tub appears to be.

My problem originates by how the tub fits in relation to the aft struts. It's essentially. 75 inches offset to the right indicated by the gap to the rear struts AND/OR angled in a way the tub rear stiffener is touching part of the the left strut but forward of the right strut. It just doesn't make sense and there doesn't appear to be a way to acceptably angle the entire tub or move the seat to make it it all work. I'm not looking for perfection but it's so off center that I feel like something may be wrong.

I have measured everything I can think of to check for symmetry in the air frame and panels. What I found is that the tub appears to be skewed as shown in my whiteboard photo. I don't know if this is normal or somethings wrong. I'm confident that I can make it work in the long run with a fair amount of gringing, cutting and refiberglassing but it just seems unusual to have to do that much alteration.

I'm providing a few pictures and hopefully someone can give me a little advice here.

Thanks

[homer bell]

Justin, we’ll be coming thru OK city in a few days, want me to stop and take a look at it? What are you calling struts, the rear landing gear leg? Best to call me and we can discuss it.
937-477-6911

[Justin Lewis]

Originally Posted by homer bell

Justin, we’ll be coming thru OK city in a few days, want me to stop and take a look at it? What are you calling struts, the rear landing gear leg? Best to call me and we can discuss it.
937-477-6911

Homer,

That would be an amazing opportunity for expert advice that I won't pass on. I'm just hitting the rack on a dawn airline layover in Pittsburgh so I'll call when I get up and hopefully we can make that work.

Thank you!

[Eric Anderson]

Justin,

You are about a week ahead of me. I received my panels on Tuesday of last week. Is the seat all the way aft and to the pilot? I’ve only just split the tub and so maybe I will soon face the same frustration as you. But when placing the seat I did notice a lot of flexibility in its lateral placement. Since the seat is everything, I’d at least initially assume that the panels are correct and maneuver the seat for fit.

[homer bell]

Guys, i suspect the molds have changed some, I know the floor pan has, but it used to be that the battery box of old, had a lot to do with where the seats got located. With the battery now up front, that’s no longer a problem.
Collective stick location was something to consider too. Noel’s kit of several years ago may be a little different than today, I don’t know. But the fit on it between the seats and floor pan was terrible, especially on the right hand side.
One thing I can advise you is about where to drill holes in lips of the seats and floor pan. If you drill your holes to close to the corner, you’ll have trouble getting the nut plates to sit level, then the screws will then be at an angle.
If you happen to get too close to the edge, there are different nut plates you can buy that will help you fix the problem without having to get out your fiberglass resin. Search Wicks or Aircraft Spruce for all the different plates you can get.
Pay attention to the different kinds of rivets supplied with the kit, particularly counter sunk ones. Many people screw up putting done head steel rivet in the Duzs buttons springs. If you do that , you will see those heads show up in the outer panel years later. Only counter sunk aluminum rivets should be used there.

[Orv Neisingh]

I don't know about the new seat pan but in the past I have always set it as far to the pilot side as possible to allow for enough space for the pilot's left hand to fit between the collective and the collective pocket side wall. That area is usually a tight fit so a little more room there is desirable and moving the seat pan to the left helps a lot.

[Justin Lewis]

Originally Posted by Eric Anderson

Justin,

You are about a week ahead of me. I received my panels on Tuesday of last week. Is the seat all the way aft and to the pilot? I’ve only just split the tub and so maybe I will soon face the same frustration as you. But when placing the seat I did notice a lot of flexibility in its lateral placement. Since the seat is everything, I’d at least initially assume that the panels are correct and maneuver the seat for fit.

Eric,

I'm almost done with the aft lower panels at this point. It's taken quite a bit of advice and patience but the end, of what I call "the cursing stage," is in sight. Having only limited recent experience in my own project, I do want to share what worked for me but please do your own homework of course.

TUB FITTING

1. The tub placement has been the key to the remaining panels so far. Understanding that everything attaches to the seatback is important but the resulting position of the tub is the initial goal that makes the rest of the work fall into place.

2. As I'm sure you know, there's no empirical frame of reference for anything. In fact, I found most panels to be unsymetrical in many ways but luckily not all. I did a ton of measuring, and attempted a number of fits before settling on the need to create my own reference points. Probably a bit OCD but I tried a sort of wag math method and it just wasn't working to my satisfaction so here's what I did.

3. The seat has two sets of notches to reference. On the outer sides, there's an indentation where the tub will meet the upper panel. I clamped a level across that (the airframe was level). Just below that is another notch that fits the tubs door tab. I squared that point by measuring to the front of the airframe on each side. I also dropped a bob weight from those corners to measure equal left/right distance from the airframe. Then I cleco"d the seat in place.

4. I put a mark on the centerline front and aft airframe tubes. I then marked the aft center of the tub to later compare. This was a bit ambiguous but the NACA scoop is what I referenced to find that point.

5. Assuming you have prepared the floor pan to fit the seat (this took a bunch of fiberglass work for me), I inserted the pan and temporarily clamped it on one side as a pivot point. I then measured for square to the seat from the lower seat "notch" to a corner in the front of the pan. I clamped into place (note that you need to have adjusted the front pads).

6. Assuming you have already joined the split tub around the gear, I essentially 'floated' the tub into position without attaching it. I used an adjustable stool on wheels to move and raise the tub into a close position.

7. I tightly stretched a bungee between the aft gear. I clamped the aft part of the tub to the bungee relatively centered using the previous marks. This allowed all other tub movement while staying relatively centered.

8. I put a level across the upper flat part of the tub (This proved important for attaching the other panels) and used about 6 clamps to hold things in place as I made adjustments. I massaged the tub until it was essentially centered while keeping level. I drilled and cleco'd the tub to the seat in the two recommend places.

9. Next, I drilled a hole for a single cleco through the front center of the tub into the front of the floor pan. Any gap doesn't matter since the pan can be adjusted forward later. For now, it's a matter of locking in the tub center.

10. I unclamped the floor pan to allow some movement forward and aft. Starting at the nose cleco and working alternatly aft, I drilled and cleco'd the pan to the tub until I reached "the split."

So far, I'm super happy with that process but again, I'm almost like a blind person giving directions so please make sure you do your own homework and don't hesitate to call me out if you find an error.

Justin

[Eric Anderson]

Justin,

Thanks! I put my tub in with a bit of frustration but it looks OK. The holes for the rear gear are too large. That's probably a job for future fiberglass work. Wade got back to me a week too late. Or rather I started cutting instead of waiting for his reply which would have saved a couple of days of repeat work. These photos are his.

[Eric Anderson]

I think I will need a new tub. A week ago I cut mine based on the manual and video. In order to get it off the frame after the first body fit I’ll need to expand the gear leg holes to about 4” diameter. My warning to new builders, cut the tub based on Wade’s photos above, NOT the builder’s manual, video and pre-etched gear holes.

[Sam Oliver]

Originally Posted by Eric Anderson

I think I will need a new tub. A week ago I cut mine based on the manual and video. In order to get it off the frame after the first body fit I’ll need to expand the gear leg holes to about 4” diameter. My warning to new builders, cut the tub based on Wade’s photos above, NOT the builder’s manual, video and pre-etched gear holes.

That’s discouraging news. I’m trying to follow this as my kit should be shipping soon. Discouraging that after all this time, the factory is unable to update or correct instructions or videos. Can you clarify “Wade’s photos above”? Im not sure who Wade is and which photos are his.
Thanks
Sam

[Eric Anderson]

The two photos in my previous post. The most important part is the 46” measurement from the back of the tub to the cut. Wade, by the way, is the guy you will most likely chat with when you hit a snag. He's also the guy who does most of the cad work. Many, if not all, of the drawings are his. Mark Peterson's Factory Tour video from earlier this summer is a great introduction to Wade, Stan, Kris and others. I should also further clarify that you certainly will and should use the manual and video to hang the body. Just don't use the pre-etched gear holes in the gel coat to gauge your cut.

[Justin Lewis]

Originally Posted by Eric Anderson

I think I will need a new tub. A week ago I cut mine based on the manual and video. In order to get it off the frame after the first body fit I’ll need to expand the gear leg holes to about 4” diameter. My warning to new builders, cut the tub based on Wade’s photos above, NOT the builder’s manual, video and pre-etched gear holes.

Eric,

Twice, I fully believed I needed a new tub. I don't know your situation but twice I was wrong.

I split tub based on the video and it luckily worked out for me. Basically I used the "pre-etched" holes as a reference and split it roughly 1/2 inch from the inside aft edge of the etched hole.

Before this conversation I hadn't paid much attention to the 46 inches you referenced but I just measured mine and it's about that or a smidge less. What did you determine your length is?

One thing to keep in mind is that it's just fiberglass. I know it's annoying but truth is that it's usually easy to bond back together if necessary. Personally, I don't worry about drilling holes or grinding to much material away knowing that it can be fixed. I obviously have no idea what you're up against so this may not be the case with you but crossing my fingers for you that it will work out.

[Eric Anderson]

Thanks Justin! So I’d considered different ways in which I could rebond, repair and sand. Maybe it would be a proud moment where I could take pride in having dug myself out of a hole. But then I figured this is the one thing I will see every time I look at this machine. The slightest wave underneath the paint will drive me batty. So I ordered a new one. RotorX is providing it free and I will pay for shipping. The free thing is SUPER GENEROUS on their part. But they felt that by following the documentation I wasn’t 100% at fault in screwing up the fit.

[homer bell]

If you can’t fix a fiberglass screwup, you’ll never finish the kit. Glas is easy to fix. When you start drilling holes in metal and you screw up, then you’ll have a more serious problem that can be harder to fix. That’s when your ability to forgive small errors and continue building will hit a wall. That’s when the kit will go up forsale, or you’ll call for help, or it will get pushed in a corner and sit for years and then go up forsale .

Perfectionist seldom finish these kits unless they accept help or are willing to let little things that don’t bother other people , go and continue. The way things look that have no affect on the safety of the machine, will need to be forgotten and progress needs to continue. Building a show machine can take decades. If that’s what you want to do, that’s fine, go for it. But I think most people bought the kit to fly not win trophies that can be bought for a few dollars at the store.

I made a living traveling around the country helping people finish ships for over 20 years. I seen nearly every reason why people don’t finish kits, so I can speak with some credibility on the subject. This thread brings back memories.

[Michael Baron]

Originally Posted by homer bell

If you can’t fix a fiberglass screwup, you’ll never finish the kit. Glas is easy to fix. When you start drilling holes in metal and you screw up, then you’ll have a more serious problem that can be harder to fix. That’s when your ability to forgive small errors and continue building will hit a wall. That’s when the kit will go up forsale, or you’ll call for help, or it will get pushed in a corner and sit for years and then go up forsale .

Perfectionist seldom finish these kits unless they accept help or are willing to let little things that don’t bother other people , go and continue. The way things look that have no affect on the safety of the machine, will need to be forgotten and progress needs to continue. Building a show machine can take decades. If that’s what you want to do, that’s fine, go for it. But I think most people bought the kit to fly not win trophies that can be bought for a few dollars at the store.

I made a living traveling around the country helping people finish ships for over 20 years. I seen nearly every reason why people don’t finish kits, so I can speak with some credibility on the subject. This thread brings back memories.

Homer do you still assist builders? Wondering if it would be a benefit to have you come out to assist with the body panels. BTW I did shoot you an email in regards to your throttle friction lock, do you still sell those?