Rotorway ownership

[Bryan Cruze]

I was looking for some advice on pros and cons on a rotorway vs a certified aircraft like an Enstrom. Also, is mast bumping a thing in a Rotorway?

[homer bell]

Mast bump is a thing in ANY two blade system.
Enstrom RW , one is certified , one isn’t.

And flying in Alaska in a homebuilt should be done very conservatively. And you should probably put in an ELT!

[Bryan Cruze]

Thanks for the response. I agree that an ELT is a must. I think the geographic location is my biggest fear with rotorway.

[Tim Morris]

Bryan, have you ever built or owned and Experimental aircraft? Experimental certified aircraft very much reflect the care and attention of the builder. Someone who builds an aircraft to get flying as soon as possible may cut corners and not put the care and workmanship required into their aircraft. This aircraft will not be as safe as others. However, someone who builds it right and puts the time into building and maintaining it correctly will have an aircraft that is just as safe (if not more safe) as a certified aircraft. So IMO it's not that a Rotorway in less safe than a certified helicopter, it a function of the quality of the build. I have flown Hughes 300's, Hueys, HH-53's, and Blackhawks. My Rotorway design-wise is just as safe as anything I have flown. You just have to make sure it was built correctly, you put the required time into maintaining it, and you fly it correctly.

[Justin Travis]

Originally Posted by Tim Morris

However, someone who builds it right and puts the time into building and maintaining it correctly will have an aircraft that is just as safe (if not more safe) as a certified aircraft. So IMO it's not that a Rotorway in less safe than a certified helicopter, it a function of the quality of the build.

This is so not true and will get people killed. I dont care if you put a team of engineers and every rotorway expert together to build a ship. It will never even come close to the safety and reliability of ANY certified helicopter.

Bryan, guys like Homer and Orv will tell you the honest truth of what a rotorway is and is not. Some other 'builders helpers' dont do this.

A rotorway is the best kit helo in my opinion, but it still should be treated MUCH differently than a certified ship. Had this discussion way too many times. The guys who think this are either lying (because perhaps they have something to gain from telling you this), or they just dont know any better and are dangerous for that reason.

For ref, Com CFI helo. Built a Jet Exec (which from my perspective now is even more unreliable than the stock RW) although far more capable if something does not break . Was part of the RW community for a bunch of years and had many friends with stock ships.

Have a safe 2022. Be careful. Pick the right ship for the mission.

[Tim Morris]

Originally Posted by Justin Travis

This is so not true and will get people killed.

IMO you are wrong. My comments will not get anybody killed. Notice I did say the Rotorway had to be maintained and flown right. I didnt say anything about reliability. And since you feel it necessary to throw credentials around: Just for reference I am a CFII Helicopter, CFII Airplane, Commercial helicopter airplane and glider.


I do agree with your statement to pick the right ship for the mission. But, I stand by my statement that a well built and maintained Rotorway is just as safe as anything I have flown - when flown correctly. Otherwise, I would not fly it.

[Justin Travis]

Originally Posted by Tim Morris

Notice I did say the Rotorway had to be maintained and flown right. I didnt say anything about reliability.


But, I stand by my statement that a well built and maintained Rotorway is just as safe as anything I have flown - when flown correctly.

Unfortunately you are wrong. You could not be any more wrong either. For a guy who has been around aviation as long as you have, you obviously have not been around the rotorway long enough.

It is the best kit helicopter you can buy, but in NO WAY is it as reliable and safe as a certified if built to even the highest conditions.

You can start from the limited cyclic. How many certified ships you see with a weight you move around from solo to dual. I have seen a few roll overs as a result of this limited cyclic. Land, and winds shift. Go to lift off and guess what, you dont have enough cyclic to keep ship from rolling.

Then you can talk tail rotor authority.

Then you can talk power plant reliability. How many certified engines need rebuilt at 400-500 hours?

Then crazy things like the upper engine mount (which you cant see or inspect on preflight) which failed on a friend of mine resulting in belts going slack and luckily he was able to auto.

Looks like you just joined recently. Talk to some guys who have been in this community for 20 years or more. Ask Orv or Homer how many REAL autos they have had to do in a RW.

I know many 20,000 hour pilots who have only flown certified ships. I only know of a few incidents of those pilots having to perform an actual emergency landing.

I would be very careful if you convince yourself that your ship is as safe as a certified because you built it well. Hate to see those guys doing confined work in RW or things that are very close to the flight envelope that they dont even realize.

Be safe. Enjoy. Just dont kid yourself.

[Tim Morris]

Originally Posted by Justin Travis

It is the best kit helicopter you can buy, but in NO WAY is it as reliable and safe as a certified if built to even the highest conditions.

OK, So you are saying the Rotorway design is unsafe. Wonder why you fly it. I never said anything about reliability and the need to properly maintain and fly it in the proper envelope.


BTW - No need to name drop: I know Orv (flown both his ships and he gave me my insurance checkout) and I respect Homer's advice on this forum. You and I just disagree. Unfortunately, we probably just frightened a potential Rotorway enthusiast away.

[Justin Travis]

Originally Posted by Tim Morris

OK, So you are saying the Rotorway design is unsafe.

Unfortunately, we probably just frightened a potential Rotorway enthusiast away.

Been many years away from here and reading comprehension seems to be just as bad.

I am did not say it is 'unsafe'. I am saying it is the 'best' kit helicopter you can buy.

But 100% no if ands or buts should one confuse that it is as safe and reliable as a certified ship (no matter the build quality). PERIOD.

It is not, and anyone who would say otherwise is either mis-informed, or otherwise lying because perhaps it is in their best interest.


I have no dog in the fight. I stated that I built a Jet Exec, which in retrospect is even more unproven than the orignal RW kit. FAR more capable, but still some big issues.

In the end, I learned that the things that I would want out of a helicopter, I could not or should not really do so in an experimental.


Years back I wrote a very long post about what I felt a RW is and is not. What I came to feel, is that if the build portion is as important and enjoyable to you as the flying, then it might be a great consideration. However many people come into this thinking it is a less expensive way into flying helicopters. I contend that is NOT the case by any stretch. Especially when one accounts for their own time.

If I talked some guy out of a Rotorway because he wanted to fly in remote parts of Alaska over unforgiving terrain (I dont know actually) then I did a really good thing and perhaps saved him a lot or aggravation and maybe his life.

This place continues to be filled with people so in love with what they build that they are unable to be honest of what it is and what it is not. That is dangerous to me.

Good luck in anything you do. Fly safe.

[Justin Travis]

@Tim

If you dont believe what I am saying, do a poll of higher time guys in RW and see how many autos they have done.

Then do the same of the certified world.

Apples and oranges and two completely different orders of magnitude ESPECIALLY when compared PER FLIGHT HOUR!

Be safe. But dont kid yourself.

[Tim Morris]

Justin, I am not kidding myself and my "reading comprehension" is just fine. No need for personal attacks. ALL Experimental accident and incident rates are higher than certified aircraft. But you just made my original point. "Experimental aircraft very much reflect the care and attention of the builder". The accident / incident rates are higher per flying hour because people do not respect them, build them properly, maintain them or fly them within their envelope. Hell there are videos of people teaching themselves how to hover. Personally, I feel just as safe flying my Rotorway as I did the Blackhawk. 20-year old kids maintained my Blackhawk; I feel safe in my Rotorway because I maintain it.

[David Fuller]

I would like to hear from some of the high time people on this subject.

[Justin Travis]

Originally Posted by Tim Morris

I feel just as safe flying my Rotorway as I did the Blackhawk. 20-year old kids maintained my Blackhawk; I feel safe in my Rotorway because I maintain it.

I am sorry, but that statement alone completely discredits you. And if you fly your rotorway with that mentality, you may be one of the people who does not walk away that unfortunately we read about from time to time.

So to illustrate your point, there was a guy who is no longer with us name Bill Orth. He was a factory instructor at RWI and VERY accomplished pilot. I was lucky enough to get to know him pretty well. He was a fantastic guy and participated in this forum despite the higher-up at RWI not always being happy about it because he spoke the truth about what the RW was and was not. So he was flying factory built and maintained ships. I cant remember the exact number, but he told me how many autos he had to do....and it was QUITE a few.

I hate to say it, but I know there is no convincing you. But people like you are a danger to others since you put this absolutely ridiculous ideas in peoples heads. I love Orv. Have not spoken with him in a few years, but he is a great guy to speak with on how a guy with many thousands of hours approaches flying in a RW. It can be done and done while minimizing risk as best one can. You certainly do not fly in the same way which would be perfectly normal operations for a certified ship.


I hate to keep going on, but go do some slope landings in the RW, and oh yea, while you were parked enjoying the day, the winds have now shifted and you have a 15kt tail wind. I hope you are not stupid enough to try to lift off.

In a certified ship, It would be a total non-issue. Something to be aware of, but nothing unsafe about it.

Dont have the interest to e-argue with a guy who can only be described as smoking crack with your statement that you feel as safe in your RW as you did a Blackhawk. Unless you meant flying it behind enemy lines while taking enemy fire, your statement is ludicrous.

[Tim Morris]

Your right, I’m wrong.

[Justin Travis]

Originally Posted by Tim Morris

Your right, I’m wrong.

Good, now that is settled .

But dont take my word. Go ask anyone who has been around the rotorwary community for many years. Try to find one person who will publicly make the statement that a Rotorway built to it's best standard is as safe as a certified ship.

You wont find any. If for some reason you might get a guy to kind of agree, I guarantee he makes his living off selling others this dream.

That is the cold hard reality. Dont take my word. I have only been around the rotorway community 20 years. There are guys with MUCH more experience than myself!

Nothing personal, but your ideas are dangerous and I feel the need to say something when I see stuff like that.